3D PinP problems

[Qframe]

As a producer of TV commercials I’m constantly giving the 3D PinP (Edius 2,3,4) filter a work out due to the lack of a DVE in Edius. I mainly use text produced in Photoshop or Quick Titler (both with alpha) and move them in all directions.

When doing this there is a visible thin line that appears where the outside edge of the moving graphic is.

Following numerous complaints from clients I discovered I could eliminate the line by turning on “soft borders”. But this creates a new problem. Another soft line, the width of the soft parameter, appears on the edge of the graphic. It is only faint but is very noticeable over some backgrounds.

Does anyone know how to get rid of this?

[SRsupport]

overscan to 0 might help

I think you already now that light sometimes produces strange effects on alpha.

[Qframe]

Yep tried that no change.

[rone]

I know what you mean, I had this problem - couldn't solve it though. I reckon it's some sort of alpha / aliasing quirk.

Might take another look at it.

[SRsupport]

Did you turn off lights in the 3d pip
Sorry about the overscan thing that is for some other problem.

[Qframe]

Yes turning off the lights is the first thing I tried.

[GrassValley_BH]

Is the line bound to the bounding box of the 3D PiP result, or is it bound to the edge of the graphic? If it's the latter, cropping in 3D PiP should fix it.

[Qframe]

I have tried cropping. It just moves the line closer in.

[STORMDAVE]

As a producer of TV commercials I’m constantly giving the 3D PinP (Edius 2,3,4) filter a work out due to the lack of a DVE in Edius. I mainly use text produced in Photoshop or Quick Titler (both with alpha) and move them in all directions.

When doing this there is a visible thin line that appears where the outside edge of the moving graphic is.

Following numerous complaints from clients I discovered I could eliminate the line by turning on “soft borders”. But this creates a new problem. Another soft line, the width of the soft parameter, appears on the edge of the graphic. It is only faint but is very noticeable over some backgrounds.

Does anyone know how to get rid of this?

Use another application for this kind of work (Such as After Effects)...Edius is an NLE. :)

But I do agree that with simple stuff, Edius should be able to handle it...and 3d PinP needs an overhaul (Such as resolution independence support, etc).

[Qframe]

But I have always been able to do this basic stuff on the Avid and Final Cut.

It is a real pain and not cost effective in business to do it in After FX.

I was very disapointed to find that this was still not fixed in 4.5c.

I may have to go back to Avid or look at the new Premier.

Thanks anyway.

[GrassValley_MD]

3D PiP is a rewrite to fix it. This is being looked at very heavily and was not feesable for 4.5.

However, I am not sure what is happening with your problem. I have used Alpha Graphics in 3D PiP all of the time with light and shadow turned off and I have not seen this line you are talking about.


Mike

[7hbg]

According to my tests, there is no problem: 3D PiP + alpha is working as expected.

Few things must be pointed out:

In the 3D PiP setup dialog: Light, Drop shadow and Borders must be disabled.
In the graphic make sure:

The background is black or dark shade of gray.
The Alpha at the edges of the graphic is at 0.



Here is a sample project to show you the output I got: 3DPiP_AlphaTest.zip (http://zabcia.ca/pics/3DPiP_AlphaTest.zip)
(Just unzip it and run the project. You may need to restore the path to the tiff)

The tiff is a butterfly on a black background with alpha applied to the background and the drop shadow.
The black background will make the shadow area go dark underneath the butterfly wings (if you had white background, it would make the shadow ‘glow’ bright).
The 3D PiP just makes the butterfly zigzag and flip on the screen.

[Qframe]

I am using files directly from Photshop. ie the key channel generated when you save a Photoshoip file whith no background.

This may be the problem.

I found that these degregate in PinP less (blur) than tiff and tga.

So it seems that Edius does not quite support Photoshop files fully (yet).

Looking forward to the next Edius update.

[SRsupport]

I use psd files without problems.

Lights off .

[STORMDAVE]

I am using files directly from Photshop. ie the key channel generated when you save a Photoshoip file whith no background.

This may be the problem.

I found that these degregate in PinP less (blur) than tiff and tga.

So it seems that Edius does not quite support Photoshop files fully (yet).

Looking forward to the next Edius update.

What size files are you using? If it is 4:3 DV, then use a Photoshop preset for DV. 3dPinP doesn't do a great job on scaling large images down when applied.

[Qframe]

If someone could try this it would be much appreciated.

I have included my custom 3DPinP settings file (I have saved it as txt but needs to re-named to .FIC).

Export in a file from Photoshop that has no background and has something in the middle. For example, text in the middle of the screen. (I use frame size 1024 x 576 PAL in Aust.) Then apply custom effect Zoom Wobble. Make sure on the layer below this, there is a background of anything but a solid colour, say a sky with clouds. You will notice that these custom effects have the light turned on but turning them off has not effect on the problem.

When playing the timeline you should notice that where the edges of the Photoshop graphic should be (ie it’s transparent) there is a 1-2 pixel line/distortion that moves with the moving graphic. It is more noticeable over backgrounds that have horizontal lines. It will go away if you use soft borders but a new problem arises… ref. to my first post.

Thanks to anyone who has the time to try it for me.

[SRsupport]

That's right.
Also use the TV format pixel aspect ratios

[SRsupport]

pAL IS NOT 1024x576

you are already looking at a rezise in edius

Photoshop has tv presets

:

[Qframe]

Sorry forgot to mention my project settings are:
16 x 9 Pal SD-DV - ie 720x576 at 1.42 (or 1024 x 576 at 1.0) Edius 4.5c

[STORMDAVE]

Not sure, but I think square widescreen for PAL is 1024x576...? The original user needs to use a DV Preset in Photoshop for PAL Wide, there is one already since CS2. It displays everything in square pixel under photoshop, but the file is not square, so once imported into an NLE, it displays correctly.

[SRsupport]

Yes but your size in photoshop don't match the project. Thus edius will first resize to project and then the 3dpip will resize further.
That's why I posted the pics

If your project in Edius is 720x576
Why is your photoshop graphic 1024x576?

That is what I am trying to point out.

@ DAVE NO NO NO

16:9 Pal is still 720x576 with a pixel aspect of 1.422 for photoshop look at the 1 pic in my previous post and look at the photoshop presets for pal.

[Qframe]

It's not a re-size. It's just a pixel aspect ratio change. In the broadcast world 16x9 PAL is actually 1024 x 576 at pixel aspect 1.0 not anomorphic 720x576 at 1.42.

I was told this by Channel 7 (Australia) engineers.

But it does not matter which I use the problem is still there!

[SRsupport]

But it depends how the editing app implement this. Because that could cause problems.
What is the size of the still you make with crt +T of your 16X9 pal footage?

Maybe it is a pal thing I'll try Monday when I am at the office. I have Pal broadcast master monitors there.
I'll look at it for you.

btw 720x576 at 1.422 is not anamorphic as far as I know
SR

[Qframe]

It’s not a re-sizing issue!!!

I import 3D animation sequences in 1024 x 576 at aspect 1.0 all the time and they actually look better than a non square pixel ratio of 720x576 at 1.42. This also applies to HD projects at the corresponding resolutions. I get much better down conversion if the animations and graphics originally had square pixels.

Please note that the line/distortion I’m talking about may not be seen on a LCD computer monitor. I mainly see it on the PAL output (LCD or CRT). It looks the same on-air.

It seems as though during rendering of the layers the graphic with movement is responding to changes in background as it moves. This is normal to account for anti-aliasing but there appears to be some errors associated with this.

If you try my Presets I posted earlier (attached file) you should see what I mean (hopefully).

I just got another bloke in Sydney to try it and he has the same problem as I do.

Any ideas would be great as I'm now getting a back log of work as they all use these effects. I want to avoid going outside of Edius to do these basic effects as it doubles edit times.

Thanks

[SRsupport]

I can test it Monday with output to a broadcast monitor. (this is not a computer monitor)
For now I can't test it.

I'll let you know on Monday. :)

SR

[STORMDAVE]

16:9 Pal is still 720x576 with a pixel aspect of 1.422 for photoshop look at the 1 pic in my previous post and look at the photoshop presets for pal.

Steve, I was talking about square pixels. NTSC Wide is actually 848 x 480 for 16:9, even thought it is 720x480 non square on tape.

I just did a bit of research and it looks like I was right, PAL is 1024x576 for square pixels.

[STORMDAVE]

It’s not a re-sizing issue!!!

I import 3D animation sequences in 1024 x 576 at aspect 1.0 all the time and they actually look better than a non square pixel ratio of 720x576 at 1.42. This also applies to HD projects at the corresponding resolutions. I get much better down conversion if the animations and graphics originally had square pixels.

Please note that the line/distortion I’m talking about may not be seen on a LCD computer monitor. I mainly see it on the PAL output (LCD or CRT). It looks the same on-air.

It seems as though during rendering of the layers the graphic with movement is responding to changes in background as it moves. This is normal to account for anti-aliasing but there appears to be some errors associated with this.

If you try my Presets I posted earlier (attached file) you should see what I mean (hopefully).

I just got another bloke in Sydney to try it and he has the same problem as I do.

Any ideas would be great as I'm now getting a back log of work as they all use these effects. I want to avoid going outside of Edius to do these basic effects as it doubles edit times.

Thanks

You need to create a new photoshop document and use the presets that SR Support put up....then drag and copy he layers (flatten first on the old one if it has multiple layers) to the new document. Save it and test it now.

[SRsupport]

Yes DAVE you are right I admit it.
Using too many apps will screw you up big time

[Qframe]

Yep Dave I tried that (using the widescreen preset) and I get the same result. It might be a PAL problem???

[SRsupport]

I downloaded the project posted by the original poster. ( that was not from the origanal poster only the 3d pip are)


But put the graphic in a psd with transparent back ground . For me to test
I have a feeling that once you do it like this your problems will be solved.

SR

Like this:

[STORMDAVE]

Yep Dave I tried that (using the widescreen preset) and I get the same result. It might be a PAL problem???

Can you zip up your PSD and send it to me?
hyperism@gmail.com

[SRsupport]

also send it to sr at ediussupport.com
no tiff but a psd with a transparent back ground

[Qframe]

Thanks guys email on the way.

[STORMDAVE]

When doing this there is a visible thin line that appears where the outside edge of the moving graphic is.


Ahhh now I get what you're talking about....flickering right? Yes. Just make sure to use thick edges on your graphics. 3dPinP is not the best scaler in the world.

I got your email and it looked ok here on a PAL 16:9 project.

Check your email, I am sending back an exported avi file.

By the way, I couldn't load your .fic file?

[SRsupport]

I also could not load the fic.
I immediately went to: outline and a little drop shadow.

I send you the same psd with dropshadow and a little outer glow. Try it now see how clean it looks. Same Psd you made.

[Qframe]

Guys I’m still waiting to get the emails down. A client has send me a heap of big files.

But in the PSD I sent, it’s not the edge of the characters I’m talking about but the edge of the actual PSD frame.

Try these in the 3DPinP settings: Orirentation X:23 Y:54 everything else set to 0 (including crop) and then move the Scale slider back and forth (0 to 100) and where the actual edge of PSD is (transparent) you should see the line/distortion I’m talking about over the background.

I don't know why you could not load the presets??? something missing???

[STORMDAVE]

Did you disable SHADOW and LIGHTING and BORDERS?

[Qframe]

Yep did all that. Does my last post make sense? it's not the edge of the characters but the edge of the oringinal frame.

[STORMDAVE]

Yes, but did you see the video I sent you? If you disable the drop shadow/lighting/bordering then you should be fine.

[Qframe]

Yep Dave I did all that.

But have a look at this JPG attached. It is a still captured from the timeline.

[SRsupport]

Did you try my psd?

Ok now I get it.

That looks like there could be something wrong.

[Qframe]

Does that mean I’m not going mad?

Sorry I might not have explained it well before so I hoped that the still was Good enough to give you the idea.

I have tried using files from other sources eg 3D Studio Max, and Quick Titler and the same problem occurs. So I suppose it must be the 3DPinP Filter/Keyer.

[STORMDAVE]

Yep Dave I did all that.

But have a look at this JPG attached. It is a still captured from the timeline.

Ok I see now. When you saw my video, I did a similar test and there was no such border on the bottom. I used an OHCI SD 16:9 Pal preset.

As a temporary solution, you could try cropping the bottom by a few pixels (2-4?) in 3dPinP.

I will think of a few more things to look at, but if it looks ok on mine with the same exact (non modified) PSD that you sent me, then something is wrong on your side.

[Qframe]

Unfortunately when you crop it just moves the distortion closer to the keyed object.

I just tried using OHCI PAL instead of NHX-E2 PAL and the problem is still there.

[STORMDAVE]

I'm totally lost. :\

I think it's your system, because I tried it today on two different computers (check my sig).

[Qframe]

I’m at a loss too!

I have the latest Edius 4.5c and a fairly new NX and we have both tested the same files. I’m trying to think of a non common factor here.

I know of one other person (in Australia) who has the same problem but could offer no answers.

I suppose I will have to find a work-around… a bit of a pain though.

[7hbg]

Drew

I was experimenting with my own files and I can now say that I can reproduce your problem 100% of the time and I can even tell when it will appear:

It is not the graphic file you use for 3DPiP that is at fault, but the contrast-details of the underling video that determines the degree of ‘distortion’ on the edges of the graphic. Imagine you have a clear sheet of glass in front of you with some text on it, and you are spinning it. As you spin it, the edges of the glass will distort the background. If the background has a lot of sharp details you will see the distortion very clearly, if the background is smooth or is monotone the distortion is impossible to see. This is the analog equivalent of what is happening here in Edius. It is still fault of 3DPiP, but you can avoid it by placing your graphic over smooth or monotone areas.

Here is a sample project that demonstrates what I just described: 3DPiP5.zip (http://zabcia.ca/pics/3DPiP5.zip)

Play the first sequence in a loop. You will see the distortions of the background grid where one would expect the edges of the graphic.
Next, play the second sequence in a loop (no sharp details there) and you will not see any distortions.

Yes it is a fault of 3DPiP, but as far as I can tell it is distorting background video beyond the graphic and the degree it is visible is dictated by the amount of contrast-details at the point of the graphic’s edge.
(I hope this helps developers in Kobe…)

[Qframe]

Thanks Rob!

Finally someone else can see it too!

Yes it is dependant on the Luminance changes in the background image. I was having trouble explaining this in my earlier posts.

I hope they can fix this in future updates because as TV commercial producer the effects we use on a day to basis all rely on the 3DPiniP filter for DVEs. This “noise” is unacceptable for broadcast applications.

[7hbg]

Drew

I was experimenting with my own files and I can now say that I can reproduce your problem 100% of the time and I can even tell when it will appear:

It is not the graphic file you use for 3DPiP that is at fault, but the contrast-details of the underling video that determines the degree of ‘distortion’ on the edges of the graphic. Imagine you have a clear sheet of glass in front of you with some text on it, and you are spinning it. As you spin it, the edges of the glass will distort the background. If the background has a lot of sharp details you will see the distortion very clearly, if the background is smooth or is monotone the distortion is impossible to see. This is the analog equivalent of what is happening here in Edius. It is still fault of 3DPiP, but you can avoid it by placing your graphic over smooth or monotone areas.

Here is a sample project that demonstrates what I just described: 3DPiP5.zip (http://zabcia.ca/pics/3DPiP5.zip)

Play the first sequence in a loop. You will see the distortions of the background grid where one would expect the edges of the graphic.
Next, play the second sequence in a loop (no sharp details there) and you will not see any distortions.

Yes it is a fault of 3DPiP, but as far as I can tell it is distorting background video beyond the graphic and the degree it is visible is dictated by the amount of contrast-details at the point of the graphic’s edge.
(I hope this helps developers in Kobe…)



Brandon (GrassValley_BH)

Can we consider this issue ‘reported’ or do we need a new thread in the ‘User-Reported Issues’?

[Khoi Pham]

As a producer of TV commercials I’m constantly giving the 3D PinP (Edius 2,3,4) filter a work out due to the lack of a DVE in Edius. I mainly use text produced in Photoshop or Quick Titler (both with alpha) and move them in all directions.

When doing this there is a visible thin line that appears where the outside edge of the moving graphic is.

Following numerous complaints from clients I discovered I could eliminate the line by turning on “soft borders”. But this creates a new problem. Another soft line, the width of the soft parameter, appears on the edge of the graphic. It is only faint but is very noticeable over some backgrounds.

Does anyone know how to get rid of this?

I had the same problem, I get rid of this by going into the layout tool and just move it a little bit to the right or left and that line just dissapeared.

[GrassValley_BH]

Brandon (GrassValley_BH)

Can we consider this issue ‘reported’ or do we need a new thread in the ‘User-Reported Issues’?
Not to sound lazy here, but you're "closest" to the issue, so I think you'd do a much better job reporting it that I would. Please submit it into the User-Reported Issues section. Thanks!

[7hbg]

Not to sound lazy here, but you're "closest" to the issue, so I think you'd do a much better job reporting it that I would. Please submit it into the User-Reported Issues section. Thanks!

So… it has been a week now since I have submitted a ‘User-Reported Issue’ on this subject.
Does it really take over a week to approve a bug report?

[GrassValley_BH]

So… it has been a week now since I have submitted a ‘User-Reported Issue’ on this subject.
Does it really take over a week to approve a bug report?
I've been really really busy so unless Kenneally or one of the other mods get to it, yes, it can...

[jdroadie]

Mike, I hate to be a bother but this 3d PIP thing is in fact a showstopper for us choosing edius...this saddens me....is there any word of said rewrite? are you talking the whole app or just the 3d pip? Maybe 4.7? if its the whole app, then I guess we'll have to go back to premiere, what a pity....if they are tired of apologizing maybe sooner? I can't believe GV can put out a product called "broadcast" with the weak DVE....I am amazed the user base has put up with it so long....

[GrassValley_KH]

3D PiP is expected to be revisited for the next major version, as it is part of the Vista-compliancy mandate.

You're quite welcome to use another solution that fits your needs - each to their own.

[Belphegor]

I'm happy to hear 3D PiP will be revisited in future.

I remind to everybody that 3D PiP is a keyer and not a Filter

This is the story behind it.

3D Pip was developed some years ago during the good old DVStorm days when competitors crafted better and improved editing solutions regarding 3D NLE effects.

3D PiP was initially written as a plugin to be used in Premiere enabling DVStorm card to do what Canopus missed from Rex card era: the ability to map video in a 3D space.
DVStorm and Rex cards have not any 3D chip onboard, like actual NX cards, differently from other competitors cards.

So, a solution able to map video in 3D space had to be crafted only in software, and this had to be powerful and smart enough to deliver Realtime (remember that we were in Pentium 4 2,8 Ghz era) and not to force editors to perform rendering.
So, this software solution forced engineers to write something that had not to be a Transition between two clips but a Filter to be applied to each clip allowing editors to compose a multilayered stack granted of 3D features.
Unfortunately, something went wrong, probably due to Alpha handling issues in DVStorm card under Premiere or in DVStorm card in itself.
This happened while Canopus engineers were also developing their own NLE called Edius and then migrated 3D PiP in it (marketing Edius and pumping it with this new feature).
So, to overcome to DVStorm limitations, 3D PiP was implemented in Edius as a Keyer and not as a Filter.
The Keyer, in the same way of Chroma/Luma Keyers, has some limitations in DV arena due to compression of DV aspect ratio: there are some visible thin black/grey lines that DV spectrum does not allow to key properly.

This is a limitation of DV video and it's a general issue.
Look cloesly how other NLE perform a Chromakey: you'll see the same thin black/grey line in the boundaries of the keyed track.
The truth is that every NLE Keyer delivers artifacts like the one reported in this first post.

I hope you don't blame me if I talked about this.
Blame should be due to Canopus/Grass Valley that in these years did do anything to improve 3D PiP keyer to solve the quirks and to empower it allowing us to get rectangular or oval PiPs with heights and lenght independently.

This is stoty mates...

[GrassValley_KH]

Well, the story is a little different...but it's all rather moot at this point.

As Brandon has mentioned, the 3D Composer effects found within Xplode Pro 4.x feature far more flexibility in terms of shapes, and indeed, quality.

[Khoi Pham]

Yep Dave I did all that.

But have a look at this JPG attached. It is a still captured from the timeline.

I guess you missed my post, but go into the Layout tool and move it a few pixel to the left or right and that line will be gone.

[jdroadie]

"I remind to everybody that 3D PiP is a keyer and not a Filter"

This is absolutely correct for said DVE, I mean 3d pip...In the switcher world, which GV knows as good as anyone, this feature is accomplished on the keyer channels....The thin line does come out, I can do PSD's with glow and shadow(nice job keeping layer effects)using PS presets....no line as long as boder/shadow is off, you can even use lights...thing is PIP keyer is missing only one thing: the ability to map its shadows and borders to the actual alpha of what is in it...instead those are mapped to the entire video frame(alpha?)....it seems kind of simple like a a bug fix you'd get in a 4.6x fix...of course if you want it to be backward compatible to that hardware mentioned it may need a checkbox,

I know the developers are busy with the format of the week, and Windoze Vista development, ....just a major bummer....everything else in Edius is easily worked around.

I am only a trial user here (yeah I know a lot of ragging) but Edius is a pretty nice package for the money. My customers like lots of stuff moving and it seems most productive to do this in the NLE when possible. Looking forward to the Edius at NAB.

[GrassValley_BH]

We'll get there... just not today. Thanks for the feedback - both good and bad is good for us in the long run.